Carspiracy

Jack (00:00)
Welcome to Carspiracy, a new podcast about how cars and car traffic have ruined our lives and what we can do about it. I'm Jack and I run E-Radicals, an e-bike and cargo bike shop in Lancaster.

Tim (00:13)
And I'm Tim. I'm Ariel Bikes. I make e-cargo bikes in a big shed in South West Scotland. We're starting this podcast to talk about the state of the UK's car-centric culture. How it harms many things we care about.

why we're so far behind other countries in the world in e-bike take up and how this state of things has come about. We obviously have skin in the game, both of us running small businesses in this industry and we thought there wasn't much content out there that tried to look at the wider picture of how we've got to where we are and how things could and should be different in the UK. We're frustrated to be honest by seeing how things are progressing in other places and wanted to talk about that.

The first episode is us, trying to tell our stories of how we got to here and getting distracted by the bigger themes we want to explore. The next episodes will be interviews with academics, journalists and people involved in the pro-bike, anti-car space in the UK.

Jack (01:13)
Yeah, it'd really good to come maybe all the way back to your awakening to this topic and how this kind of became something that you cared about.

Tim (01:22)
Okay. yeah, I mean, it's funny cause I've been busing around with bikes all my life, but in the kind of last, ⁓ 10 years, it sort of took over a bit. I kind of, I've, I'm yeah, mid forties. I've done lots of stuff. I've worked in lots of things. My background's actually graphic design, visual communication stuff. And, ⁓ but I can trace it all back to my red tricycle I had at age four.

I think I've been fiddling with bikes ever since then. And I always remember thinking as a kid, I was quite a young child thinking I didn't want to drive a car. I wanted to ride a bike. I love riding my bike. I was really lucky. I grew up in rural Sussex in the eighties and nineties and you could still ride bikes around. used to deal with my mates. We used to ride for miles and miles and miles. And it was just about okay to do that. We dodged the big roads and that was all right.

Obviously you come to like 16, 17 and living in a rural area and it was like, it just wasn't feasible to just ride my bike. It wasn't an option. So I learned to drive immediately and started driving my bike places. And it kind of that carried on and I just rode bikes all through my education and the years of working in London. And I just kind of realized that cars are getting...

more prevalent into my life and everywhere I went, everything I did was always affected by vehicles in some way. And I'd see this where I grew up. ⁓ so I go back there now. my sister lives where I grew up. She's got four kids. They can't ride a bike anywhere essentially, but the end of the driveway, like there's no way that you could ride. go and visit them there and I ride the routes I used to ride when I was but a wee boy. And it's terrifying. It's horrible.

And this sort of stuff, that sort of personal like feeling of like restriction that motor vehicles have placed on my life by stopping me riding bikes in places, I suppose, is the impetus for it all. And I got into bike campaigning sort of stuff, I suppose, living in London, 15 years ago. did volunteer for Sustrans. I did stuff around that, mainly communication stuff.

I used to go to all the critical mass rides, all that sort of stuff, Danish dynamo rides. Saw cargo bikes around, you know, 10 years ago, thought they looked pretty cool. Ended up living in Hastings in the South coast, had a child, got stuck in the house a bit, got encouraged by my wife to go to, she saw a flyer for a community bike workshop, went to that. That was another eight years of my life. Suddenly I got really involved with that, ended up spending a lot of time doing that.

⁓ Recycling bikes, building bikes, working in bike shops, doing other stuff alongside everything else. Fast forward to having a second child. We had to sell a van because we owned a van, didn't own a car. Vans only have three seats. We now had two children, four humans. ⁓ Sold the van, had money, bought a cargo bike. ⁓ Changed my life completely. They're amazing. E-cargo bike. Rode it back from London with my daughter sitting on the front.

was absolutely staggered. I've been riding bikes all my life. This thing is incredible. I can take my daughter, I can stop for a cake. We can stop for two cakes. We can carry all the cake. I'm cycling over the North Downs on all the bridleways and tracks. you know, and I've, I've got a five year old sitting on the front. I've got camping gear and cakes and we're just, and it's like, wow, this thing's amazing. And from that point on, I was like, want to do something with this. So that was six, seven years ago.

So I don't want to make them. So as you do, when you find a thing you like. that bike was a recent Miller. Right. Right. was allowed 60, one of five in the country at the time. I think that's true. 2017, 18.

Jack (05:33)
What was that?

Right, okay. Wow, wow, that's amazing.

Tim (05:39)
That

model. Yeah. Um, they really weren't many recent minutes around then. and yeah, this sort of, yeah. Um, and it was amazing, but it was brilliant. and that, yeah, kind of, and I then started trying to make stuff. I welded old bikes together. I got taught how to weld by a bloke who built airplanes. Oh, wow. Cause I figured if they stay in the air, then I can.

probably stay on wheels maybe. And just sort of gradually, gradually moved it forward. Lucky enough to have the opportunity to try and do that. Cause I just finished a job and kind of timing worked out and I had time and opportunity and then COVID happened. and which is when I met you over the phone because you phoned me up cause we were running a cargo boat delivery service in the town we lived in and yeah, just.

prototyping building during COVID having my little crappy, very expensive in the South of England workshop to try and make stuff. ⁓ yeah. And that's taken me to where I'm now, where I make bikes. try and sell the bikes. have my own little company making new cargo bikes. I've sold, sold some, made lots. think they're okay. And that's, that's, that's, that's probably took too long.

Jack (07:02)
⁓ I think that was actually very good. was ⁓ very concise. You've gone from like the very beginning all the way up to now.

Tim (07:09)
I'm

just trying to, I just try to, you don't often do it, but I try to think there is a thread of like bikes. Bikes are great. That's sort of it. Bikes are great. Bikes are empowering whether you are a five year old me on a red tricycle, trying to ride around the farmer's fields where you live. Whether you're like, I'll tell you one other thing. This is, this is like, this is my origin myth with the cargo bike stuff. So I told you that they, rode from London, we bought the bike all the way down to Hastings.

It's not a million, you know, it's not like a massive journey, but it's like an overnight camp. And we went obviously really quiet roads and tracks and stuff. And we camped near a called Tunbridge Wells. Very, very gentle, very nice, expensive town. Sorry, yeah, had to that there. Anyway, but, um, and there was any camps, it was campsite was about halfway. And we got the campsite, setting up, I had my five year old with me and I've got to go and find some food. We're going to go and get dinner.

Jack (07:52)
Royal Tumper Twelves.

Tim (08:06)
And there's a pub just up the ride. So we jumped back on the bike, which is now unloaded of all the camping staff and everything we carry with us, various teddies and things. And we ride up to the pub and it's a smart pub. It's a, it's a very, very Sussex gastro sort of And there's like in the car park, there's like big four by fours, shiny German cars, all this sort of stuff. I didn't have a look for the, for the bike. And so I just left it.

right by the front door steps where we could kind of see it. we're like, so it's like on display. And I sit near the front door with my husband, we get some food and stuff. And it's cool. She's kind of, she's excited to be going out. And everyone who comes into that pub comments on the bike because they've never seen anything like it. And the thing that struck me ⁓ really, really hit me is every woman who came in and they're mainly old, wealthy, sorts of

I'm guessing 60 years old plus women, they all, that's amazing. They all said it. That's amazing. I wish one of those had been around when I have my children. And they'd all talk to my daughter saying, do you like going in it? That they're like, it really struck me that these, people aren't people you'd expect them to go. That's a bike. If I'd parked out there like a gravel bike or a mountain bike or something else, everyone's going to go, ⁓ cyclist. know, that's going to, but because

It was just, think there's something about that, that it was really like, ⁓ yeah, these things are transformative and these people, despite the fact they're very different to me and they're like, life experience is pretty, very different to mine. They can see what this thing enables you to do with your child. Like that was really cool. Like that was really, really enlightening, I think. So anyway. ⁓

Jack (09:58)
It's

amazing. It's, yeah. And I guess, I thought, maybe I'll, yeah. It's interesting actually hearing you talk about your, your route to this. Cause mine is probably is so different and maybe a bit more frenetic. I don't know as well, but I didn't, it's one of those weird things for me where I don't think I probably have always been like sort of embedded in the idea that like bikes are best and that's the way to get around. like I did.

You know, I come from a family, we live from Essex and we were, you know, we learned to ride bikes very early on. Like I had a bike with stabilizers and I remember I was only like four or five when I sort of learned to, you know, ride a big bike without stabilizers, a bike that was too big. have two older brothers. everything I had was like hand downs. So, which is good at once. That's cause it gets you, you know, I got used to being able to get on a bike that was far too big for me, uh, when I was too little. And, know, so the thing of like, almost like getting on a petty farthing where you have to like get yourself up on it.

Tim (10:57)
You've got to be getting going really

Jack (10:59)
Yeah.

You got to be moving. And then when you, basically stopped by kind of falling to one side, landing on your feet, if you, if you managed to get the hang of it. but yeah, so I had like all that in my upbringing, but yeah, we were, know, we didn't grow, was, sorry, we didn't grow up in the countryside, but in sort of, we were townies basically. So it was definitely one of those things where, as you got into sort of being a teenager, like owning ⁓ a car was like the thing that you wanted. Like it was because that then gave you the freedom.

But having said that, there's, definitely plenty of like, you know, I carried on riding bikes the whole time as a kid and we used to go, there was some really great sort of BMX track places and stuff where we would go and ride. And, ⁓ and I did some of the, some of what you said, like I had a friend who lived, I don't know what about in a couple of towns along maybe a six, six mile, five mile ride, you know, which is not, not really far, but, the most direct route was on the A12, which is a dual carriageway. So you had to take the back routes.

And we used to go on these quite big, like just big bike rides on the weekends and stuff. So I did kind of, get into that thing, but I suppose I never. The idea of using a bike for transportation, but in and of itself was something that I think I didn't really get until not that long ago, really. Like I, yeah. So then, you know, the past, my driving test as well, similar to you. Like I wasn't only a few months on from being 17. Got a car.

Did yeah, I didn't get, didn't mainly use it to move bikes around, unfortunately. Um, and it kind of, yeah, skipped, if skipping on a bit from there to being kind of an adult, did, I did take a bike to uni. had a, I had a bike at uni and, and we'd, but then I had a car as well. I was one of those students that all the local residents hate because they create all the parking problems and everything else. Um, and cause you know, I think as well, when you've got a car at uni, it was like, you can help move other people around. So that was like, it's kind of one those things as a, as a status thing.

And then, yeah, for me kind of getting back into biking properly, I moved up to the Lake District in 2012, mainly because I'd got, know, we were my girlfriend at the time and myself, we were both like working and living in London, but ⁓ didn't need to be there. Like we both basically have remote jobs working from home. So it was like, seemed ridiculous to be somewhere so expensive. And yeah, it was getting up to the mountains.

And I'd always had this thing as a kid, like they called a bike a mountain bike. Like that was the bike that was what everyone had back then. but like, I never really saw mountain biking. was like, well, this is like a mountain bike, but I live in, you know, it's just kind of hilly in Essex. It's not where's a mountain. I want to see like mountain biking and discovering some of the trail sensors there. Like it just really spoke to my inner child of like, I think something I'd always wanted to do that just didn't really exist when I was a kid. And even looking like this is like the early nineties that the mountain biking of that era.

looks tough, compared to what it looks, you know, in terms of like the, bikes were not really.

Tim (13:50)
I was doing that. When I was like between the ages of 12 and 15, I saved up and bought Marin mountain bikes. ⁓ yes. Cross country mountain bike. I do 70, 80 miles on a weekend, on a Saturday, because I ride to the South Downs. I do all of the South Downs bits that I knew and loved on this like rigid... Yeah, was ⁓ kind of, it completely hooked me. ⁓

But then, basically my, my, kind of sporting career got distracted by music and girls basically. So kind of bikes sort of became a like support act to that rather than like, yeah, trying to ride all the time, everything. But mountain biking was always in the background for the things I've done because it's fun. I think, but I think what you just said is interesting because it's sort of, that's what cycling has become in the UK compared to most.

normal European countries where it's like a bike is full of transport. It's a thing for getting stuff around or it can be sporting vehicles. In the UK it's leisure and sporting. That's essentially what we do. That's what bikes are for. They're entertainment sort of things. They're fun. And that's all true and great. And I love that. I do a lot of that, but it's not why they're magical in my view, really now.

Jack (15:13)
Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah. And that's, I think, yeah. And that spark really, yeah. So obviously I got, I got a quite decent mountain bike for over a decade ago now and started getting into mountain biking. And I think it, weirdly enough, that was probably the catalyst still that like drew me back in because I think realizing how amazing the technology was, like how things had moved on. You know, it was the first time I'd ever had a bike that had like a hydraulic disc brakes and that

and proper like suspension, like amazing suspension. I remember, you know, my brother got the rally activator, had like the suspension fork, the first one I think we'd ever seen. And then my other brother got the activator too, which had the rear suspension, but both of them, they're like little shock absorber things, know?

Tim (15:55)
⁓ Yeah. My friend Edward Thomas had the same thing like at age 12 or so. I remember thinking at the time that that's very heavy. That's the thing that didn't really help. yeah, mean the tech again is sort of frustrating. It frustrates me now the money in tech that's in mountain bike technology, which are wonderful toys, know, sort of for mainly rich older guys in the UK.

It's amazing. These things are beautiful, wonderful expressions of joy mounted by myself. But there's such a bigger picture that in the UK we don't see about around bikes in general.

Jack (16:37)
carrying that then to like actual sort of utility and, and function. And, and yeah, so then to skip forward, like I, I think I, my, sort of my next bike from that was a Brompton, which, ⁓ I got the electric Brompton actually, cause I, it was for me, it was all about like a vehicle. Like that was the first time I think I'd been thinking about it. Cause I knew I'd, in fact, yeah, the thing that got me onto that was that I had tried through sort of my various green interests that I have sort of outside of this particular.

⁓ interest, you know, terms of like cars and everything. Cause I think actually what's, we'll come to this in another point, but like, think a lot of the green political movement, even in the UK, it's kind of started to really break my heart. Cause I'm part of that, but like how this part of what we're talking about and what you've been saying still doesn't figure even with those types of people. Like it's amazing actually how this car centric mentality and this idea that bikes are just for fun. ⁓ it's so deep.

The very people that you think would just completely get it don't get it. yeah.

Tim (17:40)
Bikes aren't serious. Bicycles are not a serious thing in the UK. It's kind of weird. think what's interesting is kind of looking at the thing that I've tried to think about every time is how has that evolved? Because obviously we're now both involved in different ways in bicycle retail selling in the UK. It's interesting looking at all the media and the infrastructure and the distributors and all the parts.

All the parts of what make up a retail segment and retail industry in the country. And it is so focused around bikes for fun. And I use the word fun with love. Fun is amazing. We should all have more fun. Bikes can be amazingly fun. But it doesn't help with it being a serious method of getting people around. When essentially it's all about gains. Can you go faster?

Can you be more extreme down the hill in mountain bike context? Or is it like a leisure thing? you're going to go for a gentle ride along the towpath with your family. Neither of those things are sort of tick the magic box that we're trying to solve as a country, around inactivity, around climate and carbon and air quality and congestion in towns and all this sort of stuff.

The industry is entirely set up for this sort of, basically bikes as, as leisure, bikes as fun, bikes as sporting goods. And I think a lot of it came from the US obviously that you mentioned mountain bike, mountain bike saved the bike industry. think that's the title of there's a book and the mountain bike saved the bike industry's butt or something. Cause it did. obviously there was like snails in the US. Yeah. There was the blip of the, ⁓

the OPEC oil crisis in the late seventies and into the eighties. then bikes obviously were nothing again, because oil was cheap, gasoline was cheap. So bikes were not important. And so yeah, the bike industry, thankfully some, some kind of Californian dudes in ripped jeans and beards invented the mountain bike and suddenly there's a whole new sector to sell. And that was, that was great because I think if that hadn't happened, cause god knows maybe the bike would have been just.

become like a tiny, tiny, tiny niche in the world's transport. suppose maybe.

Jack (20:12)
Yeah. And I guess to come to something, one of the few areas I find of mild optimism in the UK.

Tim (20:22)
Do share it, I need optimism.

Jack (20:24)
It

may not cheer you up much at all. No, but where I've kind of got to in my, cause I, my story, I can go into many rabbit holes and I will try and resist doing so. yeah, like 2019, I think was when I got my Brompton and the Brompton I think is actually one symbol of a bike that in large part, like it's far from perfect, but like it's a British invention. It isn't about fun or sports. I mean, I'm not saying it's not fun, but it is actually a very functional bike that is largely ridden.

by people for a very functional purpose. like, appreciate some of the, I guess some things that some critics would say about it in terms of its broader impact is that like around London, for example, it's people will often use it when they could still use the tube or other ways of getting around. So it's not how many car miles Brompton's take off the road. I don't know for sure, but like I, yeah, it's, it's a pretty good success story in the sense that, and don't get me wrong. I know there's, it's not all roses, ⁓

And yeah, for me, like it was the, know, as I said, I was looking at sort of trying to travel, trying to get round car free and I was traveling quite a lot. So it's not just about like, how do I do my, my, you know, weekly shopping and that kind of thing that you hear from people, but like, how do I extend the public transport network of the UK and then of other places too? So, and having like the electric Brompton was amazing because you can, it basically opens up pretty much the whole of the UK to use relatively easily travel to like you can.

Tim (21:52)
Brompton is an amazing success story because our trains are crap. Yeah. That's it. That's basically, it's a brilliant thing. And if you do want a bike that can hide under a desk, there are obviously, there are a competitive products now and everything. But if we had proper trains where you could take like real bikes, and use that tongue in cheek, they're great. They're a fantastic company. Brilliant product.

Jack (22:07)
I now sell a better one.

Tim (22:22)
That's why they've done so well. And then it became this fashion icon and obviously there's sales around the world in New York, in Tokyo, where the stuff is really interesting.

Jack (22:32)
Yeah. And I didn't mean to make this into an advert for them because it's not like, it's, it's pretty, sounds a bit like that. And I've actually got some, some negative things to say as well, but I suppose, yeah, it's, um, Oh, what was I going to say? Uh, Oh, I was going to, yes, you talked about how, um, the it's, it's cause our trains are crap, but I actually had a lot of success as well. Like I enjoyed it a lot taking it around Europe. So like taking it on the Euro star and then it allows you, cause I've got to say, actually, like even the TGV it's not.

Brilliant for taking bikes on. And in fact, the Eurostar, which is operated by the French also. Yeah. And in fact, yeah, I discovered the whole, even if you've got a Brompton, you have to have it like, or for any folding bike, you have to have it like in a bag, ⁓ just to take it on. But yeah, I had also traveled before on the Eurostar with regular sized bikes where you have to like book them in, get there an hour early. go into the cargo thing. It's a whole nightmare. So it's not as though it's all great on the continent either, but, but I think as well, what we have seen.

certainly since the pandemic is that, the, it's getting a lot, lot better. And I think this is where I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. It feels like coming up, sort of getting nearly up to speed with you when, when I first spoke to you and how I kind of then got into the cargo bikes, that sort of bounce back better thing. I feel in this country, we've bounced back worse. it's.

Tim (23:50)
I don't know where we've bounced to. It's pretty weird. I don't even stop bouncing either. But I agree with that totally. I think you can see in particular France, Paris, the infrastructure changes that happens kind of directly attributable to COVID. And I can't make a comparison with Hastings and St. Leonard's where I was living at the time in South East England and Paris, the most famous city in the world. But basically, obviously every local authority, every

Jack (24:03)
Nom Nom Nom

Tim (24:20)
sort of city was like going, what can we do? How can we encourage people to walk about but safe distancing, all this sort of stuff? How can we do this? And there was loads of money in the UK. Local authorities were basically told you can do stuff. You don't have to worry about traffic regulation orders. You can just close roads. You can make pavements wider, all this sort of stuff. And some places in the UK did that. And it pretty much as soon as the end of returning to normality kind of.

happened, lots of those, that infrastructure got taken away pretty damn rapidly. think there was court cases, there? think, Cycling UK, East Sussex. But yeah, in Hastings, like nothing happened. You know, they did, they did essentially nothing to kind of, and there's, I think it's such a sort of cultural difference between. just, and this isn't just talking about the bikes as well. This is people being able to walk.

Jack (24:58)
still some guy

Tim (25:17)
I remember arguing with a counselor. I just looked out my window and just did a little drawing of, so we're stuck in the flat because it was COVID times. And I just like took a photo of the window and measured, this is the kind of nerd I am, like the amount of pavement space, the amount of road space, the amount of road space that's taken up by parked cars on both sides of the road. And the road is really big, this particular road in question. And just said, look, look, you can see this. Like, why can't we just have a bit more space to allow people to walk about? Because we want people to walk about, but we've all got to be

three meters apart or whatever we're doing. just, none of it landed in places like that in the UK. And it's fascinating to see places where it has and how things have changed in those European places. I don't have a global knowledge, but I do know a bit about what went on in Europe and how it's progressed from them.

Jack (26:05)
Yeah. And what you were saying, like I sort of, as the pandemic was going on, I was kind of, I'd been sort of half living in France a bit. And what I think is interesting is, you can, it's very easy to look at Paris and look at how much things have changed. But I can also say that like that is, that's that's happened everywhere. Like it's, you know, there's a little, not, well, not that small. There's a town called Anamasse on the right near the border with Geneva on the French side. And the complete transformation of Anamasse, like it just, there's, there was just like a post pandemic.

complete rebuilding of like all the roads to have segregated cycleways. It was just incredible. And that's, and then, and I've seen that in just so many other French towns and cities. it's, wasn't, it's not just this big thing in Paris with Anne Hidalgo. Like I, appreciate there's a lot's going on there, but, no, you're right. It's, but then there's, yeah, I guess this, ⁓ it comes to the thing. think you just said is one of the most frustrating elements of this and which we'll go into in more detail, I think in sort of future episodes is.

This, well, the word for it, as we now know, and I didn't know for a long time, was motor normativity. And for anyone who doesn't know, we'll put a definition in. I might edit that in because I don't want to try and do that on the fly.

Tim (27:14)
Ian Walker has just published something. saw a post today from Rob, the guy who runs Really Useful Bikes in Bristol. He posted a link on Instagram to something that Ian Walker has published around that, believe. So it might be a good time to kind of read his authentic original definition of it.

Jack (27:37)
put that in the show notes. Yeah. But I guess the thing that made me think of it immediately as you said it is that point of people not even seeing what they've sacrificed for cars. And you just see that like all day for someone that once the scales fall from your eyes, you can't help but see absolutely everywhere. And it's almost annoying. It becomes almost annoying. Yeah. It's absolutely infuriating.

Tim (28:01)
I mean, poor wife, Rosie, and my children who hear me rant about this stuff all time. was this morning, I live now, I've moved. My business is now running in South, Southwest Scotland. I moved to Scotland at the end of the pandemic, mainly in order to be able to afford to have somewhere with a barn so I could work on what I do. So I've got a big shed and I build e-cargo bikes in the big shed. And I live in rural Southwest Scotland because it's really nice.

primarily, but also because it allowed, property is accessible and affordable. So it made it a viable thing to try and do. So the nearest town to me is a called Dumfries, which is a nice wee town, about 35, 38,000 people, think, something like that, around 30,000 something. A weird thing that happened there, following the pandemic and a lot of restrictions in Scotland were much tougher in terms of the constraints on businesses, schools and

People's movements were stricter in Scotland during those years, so that year and a half. It seems that basically like all traffic regulations were just given up on. lots of things like the pedestrianized area of the town and stuff, is notionally like between during nine to five, you shouldn't take a vehicle in. All this stuff is now routinely ignored. the local authority basically sort of...

have said with legitimate reasons, they kind of have budget to enforce this sort of stuff. So we just kind of get this gradual increase in increasing and encroachment of vehicles into everything. I was walking, like double yellow lines, double yellow lines are sort of standard joke in the UK. Like you do not park on a double yellow line. Like that was culturally, like that's a thing. It's always been a thing. It's just not anymore. And there's no enforcement of that. So essentially you've got a small little

streets and I stand there, basically people just leave vehicles all day long. And it's just, it's incremental, it's, it's seen because you're building on something that's already bad. It does seem so crippling once you kind of have a B in your bonnet about it you kind of think this, this would be so much nicer if we weren't doing this. This town would be nicer. I wouldn't be worried about my children being run over by a truck in the middle of the town centre.

And it's just very hard to see. We've let it slide in this direction to such a degree now. Yeah, it's puzzling. Really, really puzzling.

Jack (30:36)
think psychologically, especially for people like you and I, the thing that is so difficult to to kind of swallow around this is that people are like, they don't, it's almost just treated like a fact of life that like cars are really dangerous. They're just this like naturally occurring thing. Yeah, they're everywhere. They've, they're like, everything's awful. The first thing you teach children is like, be really careful around the road. Again, there's, there's almost like a victim blaming immediately of just like, if you do get hit, it's your fault. You know, you've got to be really careful.

Tim (30:52)
Force of Maitreya here.

Jack (31:04)
And yet amidst all of that noise and chaos, a person whistles past on a bike and that's what gets our hackles up. Like that's, that's where people then get annoyed. it's like, and it's like, my God, that, did you see that bike just run a red light, like in front of all the sorts of cars doing God knows what else.

Tim (31:23)
We're so proud of this car. And obviously you and I nerds in this world of bikes. We know the statistics, you know the facts around the energy contained in a human on a bike versus the energy of a small car and the kind of consequences of that hitting a human. It's a scale factor of difference. But bikes cause this kerfuffle in the UK that...

is entirely disproportionate to the effect label have and has become like a media trope to use. it's just, the whole thing is bundled up together. And I think that's sort of why, if we're going with this sort of podcast idea, if we can try and unpick that, try and understand that, cause I can't, I, I, I've grown up, I, I've traveled abroad bit. I've worked abroad a little bit, but mainly I've lived on this benighted Island all my life and

I don't get it. I don't get why we're so addicted to cars. any, what I think is really interesting now is any, any sort of like attempt by local authority to restrict or reduce car use or promote, even just promote alternative forms of getting about immediately causes such, the word over here would be a stushi, where you, you basically, it's a powder keg of opinion gets lit.

It seems from a certain demographic, but certainly they're very vocal and that gets mirrored and amplified in the media we have. So I'm sure, I mean, this is proved regularly by cycle campaigning organizations. When you do opinion surveys, most people would actually quite like to ride a bike more, have more safe access to it, especially ⁓ women. ⁓ Like people would like this infrastructure and they would like safer routes and they would like reduced speeds from motor vehicles and other stuff.

That seems to be the reality from what I understand from opinion surveys, but the observable reality of the world, the towns and places we live in is not that stuff isn't happening. It's certainly not happening at any sort of speed. And I thought it would, I generally thought it would. thought five years ago, like looking at what's happening here, you know, I can see that, okay, we're behind, but it will, we will progress. And when you're looking at...

Sales numbers, sales of bikes in the UK has diminished year on year. Sales of e-bikes have diminished year on year. Cargo bikes have fallen off a cliff, ⁓ which is my own personal problem. Car sales, car numbers are pretty much increasing exponentially.

Jack (34:01)
add mine.

Drive

through numbers at the highest peak drive through. Is that right now?

Tim (34:14)
Right. Yeah. Christ. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're out Americaning, you know, the Americans with equities. It's a where you can walk most places where people...

Jack (34:21)
And again.

Well, and this is the the crazy part. I was reading a horrible thing about the drive-through nature and like how people go to drive-throughs. mean, I don't mean to, it's not, I don't like to get into sort of individual judgment, but this, the sort of post pandemic antisocial element of us is that people drive to a drive-through, get their thing. Like the queues can be really long now at these. think you've seen some of these, like there's a McDonald's that, yeah, North of Lancaster where I live and like, um, massive queue and then park up in the car park and then sit and eat the food.

in the car park and then leave. like, they could just get out the car and go in. like, there was a thing I was reading was saying that, I think McDonald's are even studying it being like, it would have been quicker for the family to get out, sit inside, but they don't want to, we don't want to see each other. We don't want to see people. don't want you, it's this kind of extrinsic, you know, stay in the car. Don't interface with anyone.

Tim (35:07)
It's

first thing we mentioned, I think it's Blind Boy podcast before we were recording. And I think it's him. I think I was listening to something recently. We used to talk about cars are the original social media. Cars are the original Twitter. Because in a car, your consequences of your actions are insulated from you. Exactly as a social media account. The way your car is an extension of your personality in the same way as a...

as a social media account. you can't, but you also, have no, you have the, being part of the observable society and social fabric and world you're in seems to also be removed. he was talking about, he will, I'm fairly sure it was him, was talking like just, he could sit in the car, sitting in the middle of town, just picking his nose, like, you know, properly, properly doing that while singing along to something on the radio.

Jack (35:48)
Yeah, you can be a troll, can't you, in a cubs?

Tim (36:14)
And you wouldn't do that if you were sitting on a park bench just there. This bubble that they provide, this insulation from the real world, there's so many parallels with how we behave online. It's really interesting. I thought it was a really good comparison to make.

Jack (36:30)
amazing, isn't it? It's, in fact, so, well, I'll just, I'll finish my story to get to where I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all right. Cause I want to come to, I mean, to come to what you just said, I have a shop now on a high street in Lancaster and I saw exactly literally what you were saying. I mean, we've got, we're out in the really busy one way system and I see elements of what you said, but I saw a really extreme example of that. Only the other day of a man sat in traffic, you know, at a standstill, you know, singing at the top of his lungs, picking his nose.

And I, and the idea that you would like walk along that same street doing that, you obviously wouldn't, but sat there with the window open in your car doing it. It's fine. And it's, yeah, it's a, it's a mad thing, but I was going to say, so I got to meet you Tim, cause I am having, I have a little prompt and, I had, we'd obviously gone through, I bought it just before the pandemic, which was then kind of ironic because it didn't get quite the use I'd hoped for it initially. But, but yeah, coming out, I think.

as things were loosening up after the lockdowns, I'm trying to remember exactly how the cargo bikes came onto my radar because I actually knew of a lady. The thing I asked you right at very beginning, think of the podcast was like, what was your awakening? And I actually didn't get to my moment of awakening about cars. And I guess this whole topic around car-spiracy was this lady in Aberdeen that I used to work with. We worked at a company where everyone worked remotely. And so she had a blog and she had a

you know, non-electric cargo bikes was really into them. And she wasn't even like from a, she wasn't a particularly kind of hippie type of person or particularly green. Like she was Australian living in, Aberdeen. think she, I think she still lives in Aberdeen and she's still a very active campaigner, ⁓ on the issue of cycling and just her, her, her like angle was just on a very logical one of like the most efficient way for me to live my life and get around is to have one of these bikes that she had two young kids.

I could chuck them in the front. think it was a, it was a three wheeler one, her first one. I mean, she's a complete cargo back aficionado and she's a, like, she's not into the electric ones. She thinks that's cheating. The proper ones. but relatively flat where she is, think. but also she was, you know, she wrote them all the time. She was pretty fit, but she made this point in one of her blog posts and it was definitely the moment of like, ⁓ because I wasn't, I wasn't like massively pro car, but she just made this point. It will seem quite mundane to some people, but she said,

Tim (38:39)
Yeah, ⁓

Jack (38:55)
Why don't cars have to stop? don't drivers have to stop their cars and press a button and wait for pedestrians to stop? Why do I have to stop my bike or whatever and press the button and wait? And I know some people will be like, well, some people who are very pro-car will be like, they're stupid. Of course you wouldn't do that. But it just creates that immediate thing of, like why is the hierarchy? Like, even though I think at the time I read it, I didn't agree. I was like, well, it wouldn't work. But I was like, but I couldn't logically argue as to why.

motorists to get this priority. And obviously that was just then the beginning of this waterfall of like, yeah, like every, there's all these little things and like her doing her thing, which allegedly like is what the government want more people to do, seeing how someone like her was just basically punished at like every turn to try to do the right thing.

Tim (39:43)
It's

harder to, if you want to go, I mean, we've got great engineering departments in all, local authorities, making sure that your vehicle routes to the supermarket they've planned on the outside of town is safe and designed. So you've got sight lines on corners and you've got roundabouts that are safe and junctions that are staggered and all this other stuff. And then you're like, well, you want to ride a bike to go to Aldi. Well, can you climb steps with it in your back?

Can you make your way through a ditch? then, yeah, it's just, the cultural hierarchy, I don't know that's the right word. I'm not eloquent enough around the sort sociology terms for all this sort of stuff. But it is mad and it's so entrenched, but it's not that long. Like when you look back to like sort of 40s and 50s and photos of that time, like so the town...

south of Ye Barrow when Barrow was like a huge industrial town. Everyone cycled to work. A of mine up here is dad's from Barrow.

Jack (40:45)
I remember seeing things about that. Yeah. All cycling to work. was,

Tim (40:49)
Because it was the sensible economic way to do it and cars were too expensive.

Jack (40:54)
view as well, but like what I think is really interesting if you look at, we'll, yeah, this will be a deeper topic for us as we, as we move on with this, but cars like motorists and their cars were very much seen as these sort of guests in the city. Like you are here, like we give you permission, subject, know, it, it, providing you behave yourself, you know, if you drive through really carefully and really slowly we'll let you, cause obviously the streets back then, was all just people hanging out in the streets and, and there's obviously a whole thing you can go into with, I think the American car industry that

created the whole notion of like jaywalking as a cry as things gradually shifted the other way. But it didn't, it didn't start that way, you know, and old vehicles you see in towns are going so slowly and they're just, you know, gradually moving their way through around all the people being really careful. And then this, yeah, sorry.

Tim (41:39)
Well,

like, I'm obviously Cartoon Reads, but have you read that?

Jack (41:45)
I actually haven't read that. That is probably...

Tim (41:48)
It's long. It's great. mean, he's amazing. I've never met him, but it's a brilliant thing.

Jack (41:50)
I know you can't agree

Tim (41:56)
Okay, so it's just in case of, but that book talks about that in such depth, know, the way that obviously the book's called, roads were not built for cars. And when you look at like, I mean, obviously the UK, we're in, we're in old culture and old set of countries and old set of peoples, wherever you want to call it. And we've been building towns and stuff for damn long time, but we've only had cars in number for the last 60 years, 70 years or so.

And we've just managed to screw up our towns so significantly. mean, yeah, Lancaster is a great example. Most places I've ever been and lived. it just, it's, but it's weird. Why, why have we allowed this to happen? the perceived convenience of vehicles in towns. Yeah. It's crazy.

Jack (42:49)
Yeah, yeah. It's, and yeah, so I guess to bring to how we met. I didn't mean to like, like do it this way, but I kind of just wanted to close the loop on it because it's, it's, ⁓ it's how I think that's talked to you. Yeah. So I, I knew of this lady. I, yeah, I saw what cargo bikes were doing. I think one thing that probably really kind of came across my radar was pedal me in London. And again, not to try and give someone free publicity, but, ⁓ they,

the pedal me for anyone who doesn't know, which is probably most people, they're a cargo bike delivery company in London. ⁓ and I think the one really unique thing about what they do, cause that's becoming not very like, that's not unique at all now. Cause lots of even like DHL are using cargo bikes in London, but they were one of the early ones and their model was based around having bikes that can carry people or cargo. And you can book either through a kind of a hailing app. ⁓

And obviously they got going, think 2017, I know you know a bit about them, but they, ⁓

Tim (43:47)
Yeah, it's around then I think. Ben Knowles started it. They've been through peaks and troughs since. yeah, I don't know if they're still doing the passenger model at all. I'm not sure to be honest.

Jack (43:56)
Sorry. ⁓

Well, guess, yeah. So just for the sake of, without getting too deep on them at the moment, but the, obviously for people listening to this during the lockdowns, the idea of a form of transport where you are outside the whole time and you're not having to share, know, and for vulnerable people going to hospital appointments and everything, and they're based in London. So there's plenty of that going on. They had a massive boom during the pandemic and got a lot of attention. Jeremy Thwine did a bit about them and they were on BBC stuff. You know, they got featured on BBC news because...

Yeah. They were this incredible form of transport. You hail a bike, pulls up. It's a cargo bike. So like with a long front Bay that you can, for people who've not seen them, you can get two passengers in the front of these bikes, two adult passengers. ⁓ and I just, I think that was one of the things that certainly got me thinking. And I, at the time, ⁓ was still doing partly my work, you know, online and remote, but I wanted to try and do set something up in Lancaster and you were running a cargo bike delivery business in Hastings and, yeah. that was how, ⁓ so I gave you.

Tim (44:59)
Yeah.

me up and asked if you could call it Lancaster Cargo Co. we've got insurance which was still hard to be honest.

Jack (45:13)
It remains difficult. And, and I got my first cargo bike. heard about how you were building them and you told me about your one that you'd written back from London and, but yeah, so just to, to bring it right to the end is that I got, I got my cargo bike from a sort of recommendation from you, learned a few things about things that weren't optimal about the one I bought. ended up getting myself a recent Muller and I was doing a bit of delivery stuff. got a little business thing going, but then this really just, it was actually kind of getting one in that sense that then made me think, I don't need a car.

at all really. and I'd, so I don't have any kids. Um, so I didn't, never had that element anyway, I think I won't go through right now. I'm a bit of a recovering petrol head really. So I kind of, I liked cars, but realizing, I think the complete futility of, um, doing so many of the things, especially in a city like Lancaster by car, realizing how quick everything was by bike. And yeah, so I then wanted a recent Mueller similar to, uh, I got the load 75 was my

my bike. And I suspect there were a lot more than four of them when I got mine, although there are still not nowhere near enough anyway. Through owning one of those, I discovered that like, there's no bike shops aren't very, they're not really well equipped to help people with those kinds of bikes. And you get stopped a lot as you all know, as well from, from having had one. ⁓ and I got the mad idea that I should set up a cargo bike shop, ⁓ here. And luckily I didn't set up just a cargo bike shop. set up an electric bike shop.

into what I've now discovered. So 2024 was my first full year of trading effectively, which was the worst year for the bicycle retail industry in the UK since the 1970s.

Tim (46:46)
Yes, sir. You did pick him. Yeah. ⁓

Jack (46:50)
Yeah, the bubble had very much burst by the point though.

Tim (46:53)
Yeah, it was a funny bubble, but I mean, there was a lot, cause yeah, just on that sort of subject of like the trajectory into the business side of it. Cause both of us run bike, e-bike businesses. They're very different, but we both do it. And when I was thinking of doing this, so back in 2017, 18, when I bought, had the opportunity to buy the recent motorbike I bought.

I've been working in a friend's bike shop. I've been involved in lots of bike campaigning stuff and running the community bike project that we had in Hastings for quite a while. I was really interested in it all. kind of knew distributors from bike brands and speak to them and go to trade events, that sort of stuff. And I remember saying to people, I'm thinking about this, you know, this is kind of what I'm thinking of doing, building e-cargo bikes here, talking about the brands in Europe and like, oh, these guys do all this. I'm really excited, but I'd like to try and do something here.

And being sensible, you know, I've always wanted to keep it, be a small thing and like be a kind of not bespoke, but a small hand-built project in the UK. And just chatting to people and they're going, yeah, that's good. We can see that coming. Like e-bikes are like in the post and we think that e-cargo bikes are on the way as well. This is, this is the way the UK bike industry at that time based on my sort of imperfect survey of the people I was talking to.

sort of seven, eight years ago, like, yeah, this is, this is, you're going the right way. It's probably not a bad idea. Yeah. And that, unfortunately, that prediction really like the kind of, the little peak around COVID of everyone wanting a bike. And what that actually meant is everyone wanted a bike that cost 500 pounds. the bikes that you couldn't get were basically affordable bikes. the perception of a affordable bike is an interesting thing, but, um, because it's a lot less than affordable cars. I'll tell you that.

Yeah. That bubble happened very quickly at the beginning of COVID when basically riding a bike was one of the few fun things you could do. Since then, UK e-bike businesses and UK cargo bike, tangentially cargo related businesses, it's all been very tough. It's not fun.

Jack (48:45)
about it.

Tim (49:08)
And it's very contrasting again to what's going on with our brethren across the channel, not just in France, but in most of continental Europe. It is, again, it's puzzling. And I'd really like to try and unpick a lot of this to try and get a better understanding. Cause I'm really frustrated by it. I try and run a small business making stuff in the UK. I import things from around the world. I try and assemble, build e-cargo bikes. People seem to like them. I enjoy that. And, but trying to sell them.

trying to get people to understand what they are is harder now than it was three years ago. It's mad. It's really mad. And I think you have the same thing in the shop. like, there's fewer people who know what e-bikes are.

Jack (49:51)
And despite like, guess, yeah, so the difficulty I've had with the shop, um, it actually like opening up when I think relatively well and, know, I knew that things like those, cargo bikes were going to be there obviously in a sense of my passion, but I knew that I'd be more focusing on, you know, regular e-bikes as well. Um, but yeah, I think what the difficult thing to just carry on that theme is that I basically had a better 2024 than I'm currently having in 2025. Like it's actually got that, you know, not many businesses you open and then the second year is worse than the first.

Tim (50:23)
And like, that's a bit of context. Lancaster is not a small place. Lancaster is 140,000 people. It's got a big university. It's kind of, and then you've got like the lakes, like above it and around it. And in terms of there's quite a lot of people and there's, it's not, it's not that you've tried to sort of set up an e-bike shop on like the island of sky or something. You are surrounded by people and varying incomes. And it's the sort of place that

Yeah. Again, the mirror of Europe where you go into towns that there are, there are e-bike shops. people buy these things. Yeah. Like, so where I'm based, the town there is me. Again, not nearly as big, but like the whole region, there's quite a lot of people. When I moved here, there were two, two e-bike shops. Well, one was a sort of more regular bike shop cafe and the other one was a specific e-bike shop. And both of those have unfortunately gone now.

And it's really weird. Why are we so weird? What's going on that makes us so weird? can we not? And it's obvious, like everyone goes, you can't be like Holland. know? But like, well, yeah, or it's flat in Holland and it rains too much here and there are hills. But then you go, well, Germany. Germany's got big hills and it rains a lot. ⁓

And Ireland, Ireland, think it rains quite a lot in Ireland and Ireland's e-bike sales are significantly greater than ours.

Jack (52:00)
We love excuses.

Tim (52:02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always a reason to kind of why bikes aren't, aren't the answer. Yeah. And I think there's so many things where e-bikes answer those questions. Like, You know, I've. ⁓

Jack (52:14)
this is a conversation, I mean, I think we'll wrap up relatively soon, but it's something I would like to go into more detail about is this, I've had these circular conversations with people where they throw excuse after excuse after excuse as to why they can't or we don't or whatever. And it's quite, it's sad and maddening that often when you get to the end of it, they're just like, okay, I just don't want one, right? Like despite all of these things, I don't want to change. Like I don't like change. I want to drive my car to the supermarket. I don't want to use one of your stupid bikes.

Tim (52:42)
Yeah. And I think, again, you mentioned this earlier, I think it's really important not to, in the UK, we're really good about immediately breaking down to individual responsibilities. Yes. Yeah. So we look at the argument around littering, littering, everyone's like, people who litter are scum. They need to be kind of chased from these lands. And one of the, around where I live, a lot of the littering gets chucked out the windows of delivery vans. And I think...

I find it irritating, unpleasant, and I wish I didn't do it. I can understand why people who are delivering for various, every, any of them, to be honest, apart from like some of the better employers, which there's only like some of them. But essentially you're treated like crap. Your time is measured down to the second. You're not making a great deal of money and no one values you at any point in your kind of delivery.

chain. So why would you value the environment you're driving through when it's just essentially the hedges are just a problem for you because you can't see around the corner to go faster to make the delivery. So I kind of get it. it's, it's not, and the system that enables people to kind of feel so devalued is going to produce people who don't value the system they're in. And I think you can say the same about like

how we treat transport and stuff like that. And you've kind of got to be weird. I'm weird. I fully admit it. I'm weird. see cars everywhere. I see the effects of cars where there aren't cars. also I see the ghost of potential. see like this. And occasionally you get these wonderful moments. So I was delivering a bike. One of my bikes I've made and sold. Yay.

And I was delivering it to where it was going. And I was just riding it through a quite a nice bit of cycling structure. It's a little path that goes through a wood and had, I just stopped at a junction or something and this guy pulls up next to me. Um, he's actually walking. He's walking his dog. And I'm like, wait, wait, what's that? What's that? So this is what you mentioned. If you're riding a weird electric bike, a cargo bike, especially you would have to factor in journey time because you're going to spend time talking about it. And as soon you say you've made it, that's a whole nother, especially old man.

But this guy was like, yeah, that's funny. It's e-bike, isn't it? Yeah, it's e-bike. I got an e-bike recently, it changed my life. And it's really interesting how many times, I mean, I live in rural Scotland. don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not in South London. I'm not seeing people on every corner. I'm not, there's not millions of people around me, but it's amazing how often I have interactions with people because I'm riding a weird bike and they take an interest in that and they go, yeah, I got an e-bike. It tends to be older people. Yep. And they're like, it changed my life.

I, a lot of people talk about health benefits. They're basically just like complete evangelists for these things. they're just, just regular dudes. They're not, they're not weird like me. They're just people who've gone, yeah, this thing's amazing. I can ride to the shopping. go and see my grandkids. I do all this stuff. It's fantastic. And you've had no help to do that. There's no incentives, nothing else. A friend of mine just done exactly the same thing. She's a care worker. She managed to get through, managed to get a cycle to work about.

And she's got an e-bike and she's completely blown away by it. It's like transformative. She doesn't drive. You know, it's brilliant.

Jack (56:16)
And these are like my, like the star customers I get in a sense where like they, they're the ones that I, you sell them a bike. hear nothing ⁓ for like a year. and then they'll come in and be like, can I, it's my bike due for service. And I haven't been as good as I could be at reminding people when their services said, that was the thing I had intentionally intended to do when I got the shop going. But, but yeah, you're like, God, yeah, it's been over a year. Yeah. Bring it in by all means. And obviously the bikes I'm selling, you know, they're in, they're good quality bikes. So they last a long time and there's not normally much that needs doing.

within the first couple of years, but yeah, a of these bikes have come in and I've put them into the diagnostics and the person's done like 5,000 miles and it's like, you know, Whoa. And they're just, they're using it every day for everything and they're just loving it. But in a frustrating sense, a lot of those kinds of customers, they're not necessarily on Instagram or the social media, you know, they're not in the places where they're influencing other people, but the stories they tell you are incredible. And it's like, God, we, need to do something with this because

Tim (56:51)
Yeah. ⁓

Jack (57:13)
Yeah. Communicating the joys that people have. and there have been some great, mean, there was a story not that so long ago. think Henry Mance in the financial times wrote a thing about e-bikes and just like, just absolutely raving and just, you know, said, I've finally written one. And he talked about how being on an e-bike gave you that thrill of when you first ride a bike without stabilizers, that moment of feeling that like mechanical advantage of, a basic bicycle, know, and that, my God, the speed suddenly picking up.

And it recreates it for adults. know, you, get on it and that power it gives you.

Tim (57:45)
Yeah, the word I was used to try and describe is amplification. amplification. And the thing is, like again, this guy who's talking about, so probably late sixties, early seventies, I'm guessing, we chatted for like 20 minutes about how wonderful his e-bike was. And I was just really enjoying him. yeah, just the fact that if, lots of people talk about this, idea that obviously cycling is a great health intervention.

And you should have cycling prescription and like that sort of idea. If you take someone who's sort of whatever age, but like they've not done any sort of physical activity. I haven't ridden a bike for like 25 years or something. You put them on a regular bike and get them to ride up a 10 % incline. They're not going to do that again in a rush. It's horrible. It's really hard work. Like, especially the steeper it gets, you know, it's, it's, hard. Put them on a new bike and they can use whatever level of assist they choose.

they will do that and they will do it again and again and again because you get the joy of it without, it smooths your path back into taking exercise in that way. They are magical. They are brilliant. And it is completely puzzling that we, which is, I guess maybe the subject we should focus on to try and stop this being just rambling. Why do we not have any in

financial incentive, significant financial incentive for the purchase of e-bikes in the UK when we have every other form of electric transport has either a really significant tax or grant of blah, blah, blah, blah. There's loads of stuff. There's a really good article, which I think I sent you.

Jack (59:23)
We can pop it in the show notes.

Tim (59:25)
Yeah,

⁓ it's a guy from Noel Fley Cass, who I've never met, is a research fellow at the University of Leeds. Basically really well.

Jack (59:34)
No, no.

Sorry, I don't know if you did send me this one because I don't know.

Tim (59:39)
Yeah,

yeah, I said this was last week. Is that one on the conversation? Yes.

Jack (59:43)
I didn't see what was written by Noel.

Tim (59:45)
Can we get him on this? I saw he's got a thing from, yeah, University of Lancaster. But yeah, University of Leeds is what he's a tribute to. But yeah, but it's a brilliant article because it actually, unlike me just ranting about this stuff, it's very well referenced. yeah, I just think that again, like, why are we doing this? Why did France choose to subsidise

Jack (59:47)
Custer.

But yeah,

Tim (1:00:15)
e-bike purchase over the past five years and we just chose not to. And I think there's lots of questions around that. Is it to do with like essentially cultural incumbency? Is it just inertia? it just, nah, we don't do that. Is it as simple as that? it motor vehicle or, you know, motor vehicle lobbying? Is it the power of that? Is it the power of like the motor and organizations, you know, like the AINROC, if they are political parties, it'd be...

biggest in the country, wouldn't they? Is it like that? Is it our media? Is it just like the thought of the fact that if you're a party in power and you announce you're going to give a subsidy to allow like old people to buy e-bikes, is it going to be presented as some sort of mad swap to eco loons in the Daily Mail? Why? Why, why, why are we not doing this?

Jack (1:01:10)
Well, the good news is that I'm sure I fact, I'm 99 % certain we'll be able to get Noel on as a guest quite easily. I've actually, I was emailing him today. I didn't realize. that's amazing. I read that without even, yeah, didn't even clock that it was written by Noel. But yeah, if we will maybe wrap things here and cause we've been going for quite a while and I, yeah, I think.

Tim (1:01:23)
Don't get that of AI.

Yeah, a barrier.

Thanks for listening. We'll be back soon with a more focused episode interviewing Noel Flay Cass around his academic work about cars, e-bikes and society in the UK. We'll be following that up with more interviews and research driven content and probably some ranting and stories and that sort of thing.

Jack (1:01:56)
We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. If you have, please give us a rating in your podcatcher of choice. It would really help us get to a wider audience. And please also tell your friends. If you haven't, then ⁓ we'd appreciate you just keeping that to yourself. Thank you. We'll see you next time.